Sir John Monash, Personal Files Book 10, 12 November - 18 November 1915, Part 12

Conflict:
First World War, 1914–18
Part of Quest:
Sir John Monash (General, b.1865 - d.1931)
Subject:
  • Documents and letters
Status:
Open for review
Accession number:
RCDIG0000603
Difficulty:

Page 1 / 10

NEAA 531 Headquarters, N.2. 4 A. Division, COUTIDENTLAL. 15th November, 1915. Brigadier-General John Menash, Commanding 4th Australian Infantry Brigade. In reply to your letter of November 14th, the G.O.C. would be glad if you will please give dates and Turther explanation of your contention. The gradation list of the Australian Imperial Ferce shows that Colonel (temporary Brigadier-General) K. Chauvel, C.M.G., is senier to you, not only in the Australian Imperial Force, but also in the Commonwealth Military perces. mt Licut-Colenel, NA.A.G. N.2. 8 A. DIVISION.
32 Beauchof's Hill Contidential Nov. 15/15 N.2. A. Div. H.Q. In reply to NZAA 531 of 15th inst The explanation of the statement on my letter of Nev. 14, that I am austalian the semor officer of my rank present with the Army Coops" is as fol. lows:- A.1.P. orders state;- on appointment, and until promitet, in the A.1.F.. Officers on "the Active hist of the C.M.I shall rank according to this dates of appointment in that rank in the s C.Mp-- unders otherwias expressly stated. The undertied words in this extract have been underlined by me] Commonwealth Grazette to week ending Sep 4/15 announces the promotion to the rank of Brigadier General, (unconditionally), on the A.1.P. of a num. Ger of ofpecrs, & determines the following order of precedence, in: - McCay, McLagan, Machaurin, Monash, Pyrie, Hughes, Chanvel.- Hrnry order 35 of 1915 states that "all offices belonging to a wnit will take procedence therein, and in thei respective ranks according to the date of appointment a promotion to those ranks -_- & London Gazette of July 9/15 gives the dates from which the grants t temporary rank announced therein take effect thus: - Cot. I Monast, Sep 15/14, Col. H. Chanvel C.M.G. Dec 10/14.- Whether the grant of temporary rank be regarded as an appoint ment, or as a pormotion it will be seen that the claim of presidence is met by one as other of the regulations cited.- HhnMonash Brg Sent Comd 4th Jisk Inf. Bde.
301 V8 CAr Form. Army Form C 2121. MESSAGES AND SIANALS. OA Nod Uearo mae Cop./ Warses C Rad a This message is on a/e of: wa mt a ton hor 100 poa 20H0 p ane Tem TO. Goc (Signature of Franking Oncer.7 B No. 1 Subjsection. Dievoottiego, Wight 70 15th/10th, 1815. EESEEE WAN EenGE AAA INPORHATION D. (a) SAtn HVISiON Clefp E Ve Subsection have arranged Tor Machine Gun Hire on RACkApY WICK wen/ Turke wertips partios are poard. (0) No. 2/Sub-section (1eft) Str ney Wire-TIIn from 1830 until 2400. Datrolf. (e) Cantopbury B6IA. (Fight) Patrofling to their Front 1939 to 2330. (a) Passford for all sections 26h Brpcade and N/2. InE. Brigado to 131 730 ENYTON (2) L36a BEIn. Patrels 1 N.F.O. and 5wen WiII debouc From 14th ftln. lines it 2000 and Ol00 retirning by right of 13th Ht et 2130 and 0200 respectively. These patrofo +III pay special attention to any novenent which may be keapd io strootton of AACKNLY WICK. Nos. B and 5 Machine Oune 15tr ptln. ate held in readiness to Co-oDerate With 54th Diftston and Oping Bursts of Fire on HACKNEY KICK iL(movenent is) heard. No. Post Observation Station Will report povement on HACKNEY WICR as previously arranged. Hart Tened of 1650 From Cast. AAd putant, 13th pattellon. Co0t. Bde. Igrs. TC The advos may id sercaed at how totheed B B AEDudmm De P Aenature of AnAeser or peren enthersed to telegrapt in his name ½ NO. E. HEEMeahoud be crased U Awb, No. 3 Post(I4th ) -No & Copt, top 110. 21s. For ORA 5712. 8 File.
1 AD pat t am th
34 Headquarters, 4th. Australian Inf. Brigade, Hay Valley, Anzac, Gailipoli Peninsula, 16th. November, 1915. 0. 60 Australian Intermediate Base, CAIRO. Further to my letter of October sist. (from Alexsnaria) upon the subject of delnyed canles, 1 forward nerewith, for your information, copy of a letter received today from the Eastern Telegrann Company 1td. Mr Bris.-Genl. commanding 4th. Australian Infantry Brigade.
HEADOUARTERS, CONFIDENTIAL. NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIAN DIVISION. N.2.A.A. 531 16th November, 1915. 20. Brigadier-General John Monash, C.B. In reply to your letter of the 15th instant, 1 have to inform you as follows:- 1. The grant of temporary rank of Brigadier-General to certain officers of the A.I.F. was made on the authority of the London Gazette dated 9th July, 1915. 2. The rules governing the seniority of Colonels granted the temporary rank of Brigadier-General are set forth in King's Regulations para, 224 (111). Such officers rank among themselves according to the date of their promotion to substantive rank, Commonwealth Military Regulations also prescribe that the rank of Brigadier-General shall be temporary and local. 3. It is noted that the Commonwealth Cazette erroneously converted the grant of temporary rank into pro- motion, and, as this was no doubt inadvertent, the G.O.C. is bringing the fact to the notice of the Army Corps Commander, so that the necessary correction may be referred to the Minister of Defence. Splintin Hent, Colonel A. A. G., N.L. & A. Division
TO. PON, CRS M TONOA MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. Dcoars Recotg SANOEMNON Ofice Stamp Norde a 94 Bl Charges to collect Sertes Ttteton ccet Handed in at DRACO th B0e LCONYWSNSNSA Lga Das ge po AAA GH 419 Heport for 21 homs ended 0500 16/14/14 O Smping Hally for Gog dusky in trenche at ange effective shooting vused ada sofal to date Your gar nt Casnalre ada HACKNEY WICR Dbservation repork saa roming Between 1745 and 1750 AM he sunks at the and aagactent henghis appeared very punpy and fired lot MON RuoeaMe Ths I AW Mn UMMt Wa maEd-Sr S B Lld-Fa TO. TOW OIS AA TONSRN (MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. No. of Mossaso Receed SAt, OCAMON Office Stamp ae ae Charges to collect SoNES SANSAN an Handedin at SATSINONN TeAOFSNSMON FEONWSTE AAA Ammunition D Tumbers 2 and 15 Fachine Tuns remain pained on HHCHEY wIcK but no working parkes were heard or reported aao O Gahol which went and as so0d did not return until 2215 aaa, They raversed WEFTERN Jelope 1 of ACHVI DIER and heard Bur IURNYSHPGIRO caa. Ther confirm previous Turks report That the ATCALX make use of to call to each other when on patiol aad it was considered pAb 0100 mon RACKETMIS TetN tMSEN WMa Ma Ed-ArL S.B.Lt-F
TO.PON CSS TSSIR DMESSAGES AND SIGNALS No. AMdease out or conton Ofice Stamp l a From Charges to collect 18 Sertes Tttaon Handed in TEESTE AAA light end pation cond post Burrants G0 MOn RORS
Report N enty Sec LoGc41/2 fut Terrowing has been cantinuer and Goodl progress made sapping has been pushed an wore entanglement in from of fire trench her been addest by 500 Sap to Franlim had been further improved &and pit or BeckBeaf was can carried an Tunnel for M.G. Mas Ace comsleted and the gun emprased. General information every thing was quite thontf oft 4 hous 116 dmipers report my no monement of any kind lce adserved. oppside our emes 2spiper mentores to saffold ysmanny ling and notnew Turds lshing up from theyer position after afew ocmate shot the Cohring stoped Eara Sinmafor A2 me &ec &e 65/06 D 16/1/15 pt Mr
O Pow COMSNA LAYPONONN AO NESSAGES AND SIGNAIS No. of Mossage Oaco Stwr Contauo Received cad t ow Charges to collect 1 SAMS HMr cannal Handedin at 4 Austratian Ba BIONWTS D0 A19 SEAASISEANNN AAA m 46 eased 24th uneventful a perion 161 a des repeased FROM Bd 162 PLAGEATIR the Me wand to mand to a. Ma. W wo Ead -81l. A B. Lid-FermC. 212

NZAA
531
 

Headquarters,

N.Z. & A. Division,
15th November, 1915.
CONFIDENTIAL: 

Brigadier-General John Monash,
Commanding 4th Australian Infantry Brigade.

In reply to your letter of November 14th, the
G.O.C. would be glad if you will please give dates and
further explanation of your contention.
The gradation list of the Australian Imperial
Force shows that Colonel (temporary Brigadier-General)
H. Chauvel, C.M.G., is senior to you, not only in the
Australian Imperial Force, but also in the Commonwealth
Military Forces.

C Murtagh
Lieut-Colonel,
A/A.A.G. N.Z. & A. DIVISION.
 

 

32
Beauchop's Hill
Nov. 15/15
Confidential
N.Z. A. Div. H.Q.
In reply to NZAA 531 of 15th inst.
The explanation of the statement on my letter of Nov. 14, that I am
"the  ##senior ^Australian officer of my rank present with the Army Corps" is as
follows:-
A.I.F. orders state:-
"on appointment, and until promoted, in the A.I.F... officers on
"the Active list of the - - - C.M.F shall rank according to their duties
"of appointment in that rank in the - - - C.M.F - -  unless otherwise
expressly stated.
The underlined words in this extract have been underlined by me]
Commonwealth Gazette for week ending Sep 4/15 announces the promotions
to the rank of Brigadier General, (unconditionally), in the A.I.F. of a number
of officers, & determines the following order of precedence, viz :- McCoy,
McLagan, MacLaurin, Monash, Ryrie, Hughes, Chauvel.-
Army order 35 of 1915 states that "all officers belonging - - - to a unit
"will take precedence therein, and in their respective ranks according to the
"date of appointment or promotion to those ranks --- etc"
London Gazette of July 9/15 gives the dates from which the grants
 temporary rank announced therein take effect thus: - Col. J.
Monash, Sep 15/14, Col. H. Chauvel C.M.G. Dec 10/14.-
Whether the grant of temporary rank be regarded as an "appointment,"
or as a "promotion" it will be seen that the claim of precedence
is met by one as other of the regulations cited.-
John Monash
Brig - Genl.
Comdg 4th Aust. Inf. Bde.
 

 

"A" Form.   Army Form C. 2121.
MESSAGES AND SIGNALS.   No. of Message
Prefix   Code   m.
Office of Origin and Service Instructions.
Q.A.420. 
Words. Charge
Sent
At  Copy m.
To 
By 
This message is on a/c of:
    No.1   Service.
T.O. GOC 4th Bde
(Signature of "Franking Office.")
Recd. at     m.
Date   108 
From
By
TO   No. 1 Sub-section. - Dispositions, Night
15th/16th, 1915
*  Senders Number.     Day of Month.   In reply to Number     AAA
INFORMATION. (1). (a) 54th Division )left on no, 2
SubSections have arranged for Machine Gun Fire on 
HACKNEY WICK when Turks working parties are heard.
(b) No, 2 Sub-section (left) 
Six men wire-fixing from 1830 until 2400. No
patrols.
(c) Canterbury Btln, (right)
Patrolling to their front 1930 to 2330.

(d) Password for all sections
4th Brigade and N.Z. Inf. Brigade is  XXXXX  "ESSEX"
INTENTION (2)  13th Btln. patrols 1 N.C.O. and
3 men will debouch from 14th Btln. lines at
2000 and 0100 returning by right of 13th Btln. at
2130 and 0200 respectively. These patrols will
pay special attention to any movement which may 
be heard in direction of HACJNEY WICK.

Nos. 2 and 5 Machine Guns 13th
Btln. are held in readiness to co-operate with
54th Division and bring bursts of fire on HACKNEY 
WICK if movement is heard.
NO. 1 Post Observation Station will
report movement on HACK+KNEY WICK as previously 
arranged 
From     Issued at 1650     DW Marks Capt.
 Place                                    A/Adjutant, 13th Battalion
Time       Copy 1.   Bde. H'qrs.
                           2.  Canterbury Btln.
                           3.   No 2 Sub-section
                           4.   No. 1 Post
                           5.   No. 2 Post                            No.    6.   No. 3 Post    (14th    
                           7. Capt Gibbs                                                                      Btln)
                                                                                 No. 8   File,
JM

 

 

A I F
orders
& GRO sent this
am
 

 

34
Headquarters,
4th. Australian Inf. Brigade,
Hay Valley, Anzac,
Gallipoli Peninsula,
16th. November, 1915.
0.C.
Australian Intermediate Base,
CAIRO.
Further to my letter of October 31st. (from Alexandria) upon
the subject of delayed cables, I forward werewith, for your information,
copy of a letter received today from the Eastern Telegraph Company
Ltd.
JM
Brig.-Genl.
Commanding 4th. Australian Infantry Brigade.
 

 

HEADQUARTERS,
CONFIDENTIAL.
NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIAN DIVISION.
N.Z.A.A. 531
16th November, 1915.
To.
Brigadier-General John Monash, C.B.

In reply to your letter of the 15th instant, I
have to inform you as follows:-
1. The grant of temporary rank of Brigadier-General
to certain officers of the A.I.F. was made on the authority
of the London Gazette dated 9th July, 1915.
2. The rules governing the seniority of Colonels
granted the temporary rank of Brigadier-General are set forth
in King's Regulations para, 224 (III). Such officers rank
among themselves according to the date of their promotion to
substantive rank.
Commonwealth Military Regulations also prescribe
that the rank of Brigadier-General shall be temporary and
local.
3. It is noted that the Commonwealth Gazette
erroneously converted the grant of temporary rank into promotion,
and, as this was no doubt inadvertent, the G.O.C. is
bringing the fact to the notice of the Army Corps Commander,
so that the necessary correction may be referred to the
Minister of Defence.

C W Smitnik
Lieut. Colonel
A. A. G., N.Z. & A. Division
 

 

"C" Form. (Original.)  Army Form C.2123
MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. No. of Message
Prefix  Code     Words
Recd   QA
From  RFS
By 
Sent, or sent out
At   m.
To
By  120 
Office Stamp.
BQ 
16/11
₤  s.  d.
Charges to collect
Service Instructions. 
Handed in at the      Office at     m.    Received here at  0538 m.
TO   4th Bde

*  Senders Number.     Day of Month.   In reply to Number     AAA
QA 419                             16th                       _______
Report for 24 hours ended
0500 16/11/15
1. Sniping tally ___
200 dusty in trenches for
effective shooting at range
used aaa  Total to date
Four aaa
2. Casualties nil aaa
3 HACKNEY WICK observation
nothing to report aaa
4. Between 1740 and 1750 
the Turks at the FARM
and adjacent trenches
appeared very jumpy
and fired a lot of


"C" Form. (Original.)  Army Form C.2123
MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. No. of Message
Prefix  Code     Words
Recd    
From   
By 
Sent, or sent out
At   m.
To
By   
Office Stamp.
 ₤  s.  d.
Charges to collect
Service Instructions. 
Handed in at the      Office at     m.    Received here at  0538 m.
TO    2

*  Senders Number.     Day of Month.   In reply to Number     AAA
ammunition aaa
5. Numbers 2 and 5 Machine Guns
remain Manned on Hackney Wick
but no working parties were
heard or reported aaa
6. Patrol which went out at 
2000 did not return until 
2215 aaa  They traversed
WESTERN Slope of AGHYL FDERE
and heard  Tur  TURKIUSH PATROL

aaa. They confirm previous
report That the Turks
make use of CATCALLS
to call each other when 
on patrol aaa
7. AT 0100 it was considered

 

 

"C" Form. (Original.)  Army Form C.2123
MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. No. of Message
Prefix  Code     Words
Recd    
From   
By 
Sent, or sent out
At   m.
To
By  118
Office Stamp.
 ₤  s.  d.
Charges to collect
Service Instructions. 
Handed in at the      Office at     m.    Received here at    m.
TO    3

*  Senders Number.     Day of Month.   In reply to Number     AAA
too  light to send out
second patrol aaa
8. Listening posts nothing to
report 

Div
Bm 
1606
JM
162nd
1607
FROM       Durrants Post
PLACE & TIME


 

 

NZ sub. Sec. Report N5
117
To G.O.C. 4th Inf.
Terracing has been
continued and Good
progress made
Sapping has been pushed
an
Wire entanglements in
from of fire trench her
been added to by 50ft
Sap to Franklin has been
further improved
Fank pit or BeckBluf
has been carried on
Tunnel for M.G.  has been
completed and the gun
unplaced.
General information
every thing was quite
throughout the 24 hours 
63
 

116
Snipers reporting no
movement of any kind
being observed.   nnn  opposite
our lines 2 snipers  went over
to Suffolk  yeomanry lines
and noticed Turks
bobbing  up from theyer
position after a few
accurate shots the bobbing
stopped
ELMaroglin major
O/C N2 sub sec

0506

16/11 15

Div
Bm 1606
JM

65
 

 

"C" Form. (Original.)  Army Form C.2123
MESSAGES AND SIGNALS. No. of Message
Prefix  SM   Code  FLW    Words 24 
Recd
From  NZ
By   TJD
Sent, or sent out
At   m.
To
By
Office Stamp.
115
₤  s.  d.
Charges to collect
Service Instructions. 
Handed in at the   3P B   Office at     m.    Received here at 0756  m.
To 4th Australian Bde
*  Senders Number.     Day of Month.   In reply to Number     AAA
   Bm 465                          16th
Period uneventful aaa Addressed 54th
Divn Repeated 161 and Aust Bdes
Bm 1607
JM
FROM       162nd Bde
PLACE & TIME  0658


 

 

 
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