Charles E W Bean, Diaries, AWM38 3DRL 606/255/1 - 1916 - 1937 - Part 9

B

[*Confidential*]
MISSING. From file

Letter from A.G. to Secretary in connection with the
appointment of G.o.C. Troops in Egypt (Dated 17th November 1915)
and possibly subsequent documents up to 24^th

Probably, however, the beginning
of the matter is not
embodied in any file available
Mr [[?]] suggest that you
should when down next examine
the personal files of General Sellheim
& [[Snelling?]] (which are kept
locked away & not shown to
anyone - even to them). It appears
to have been brought about by a feeling
that Sellheim was not proving big enough for
the job!
[*Permission
from the
Secretary
a Mr Trumble
for the minutes*]
 

DEFENCE 264/1/41
24th November 1915
[COPY OF LETTER TO -]
The Secretary,
Prime Ministers Department,
[*Appointment
of GOC
troops in
Egypt*]
I am directed to request that a cablegram in the
following terms may be despatched to the Secretary of
State for the Colonies -
"THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED TO CREATE POSITION OF
DEPUTY QUARTERMASTER GENERAL FOR AUSTRALIAN TROOPS
IN EGYPT AND AN OFFICER WILL LEAVE AUSTRALIA AT AN
EARLY DATE TO TAKE OVER THIS DUTY STOP ALSO PROPOSED TO
TO APPOINT AN AUSTRALIAN OFFICER AS GENERAL OFFICER
COMMANDING  AUSTRALIAN TROOPS IN EGYPT WITH SUITABLE
STAFF AND TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO THIS GOVERNMENT UNDER
GENERAL OFFICER COMMANDING, EGYPT FOR CO-OPERATION OF TRAI
TRAINING, ADMINISTRATION AND ORGANISATION"

T. T.
Acting Secretary.
G.F.P.
Pend
6. 12. 15
 x x x x x x x x x x x x x 
8th December 1915
The Secretary
Prime Minister's Department.
With reference to your 15/3526/285 of 24th ult.,
I beg to request that a cablegram, in the following terms
may be transmitted to the Secretary of State for the
Colonies -
"IN CONTINUATION OF MY TELEGRAM OF THE 24TH NOVEMBER (?)
COLONEL IRVING IS BEING APPOINTED GENERAL OFFICER COMMANDING
AUSTRALIAN TROOPS EGYPT WITH RANK OF BRIGADIER GENERAL
AND HIS STAFF WILL CONSIST OF GENERAL SELLHEIM AT
PRESENT COMMANDING AUSTRALIAN INTERMEDIATE BASE CAIRO AS
DEPUTY ADJUTANT GENERAL, COLONEL ANDERSON FROM AUSTRALIA
AS DEPUTY QUARTERMASTER GENERAL COLONEL HOWSE NOW IN
CAIRO AS DIRECTOR MEDICAL SERVICES. A GENERAL STAFF
OFFICER TO BE APPOINTED LATER. PROPOSED THAT COLONEL
IRVING LEAVE AUSTRALIA DECEMBER 28TH"
T.T.
Acting Secretary
G.F.P.
File being sent
to you but
the reason for
the action is not
apparent.
 

188.
July 14. 1925.
Dear Trumble,
I have sent to Dodds the enclosed letter asking
if he can assist me with information as to the original reason
for sending Irving over to take command of all Australian
troöps and training in Egypt. ^I didn't realise that he was in England If you could see your way, without
any breach of confidence, to put me on the right lines I
should be grateful.
Yours sincerely,
C. E. W. BEAN

T. Trumble, Esq., C.M.G., C.B.E.,
Department of Defence,
Melbourne.
 

187.
July 14, 1925.
Brigadier-General T.H. Dodds, C.M.G., C.V.C., D.S.O.,
High Commissioner's Office,
Australia House,
Strand
London. W.C.2.
Dear Dodds,
In dealing with the development of A.I.F. H.Q. in Egypt
and the increase in its status which occurred about the beginning of
1916 when Irving was sent over, I cannot at present find the origin
of the step which was adopted in sending Irving to command Australian
troops in Egypt and take over the Training Depot. The
Government's decision, stated in its cable of November 24, 1915, is
on the file; but the first letter - one dated November 17 from yourself
to the Secretary - and any all documents ^(if any) between that date and November
24 are absent. I wonder if you would mind telling me how or
where the matter first arose - whether with press articles from
Schuler or Murdoch, or in statements made by returned officers or
others? If you could see your way to put me on the right lines I
would be grateful.

Yours sincerely,
C.EW. BEAN
 

Sec/ER.
TELEPHONE:
CENTRAL 4780.
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE.
No. ........
MELBOURNE, 26^th, August, 1925.
Dear Bean,
Recently you wrote me asking if I could give you
the original reason for sending General Irving to Egypt to
take command of all Australian troops and training. I am
not very clear now as to the reasons but am under the
impression that there were some special grounds for doing so -
I regret I cannot help you from memory as to what they were.
I have also consulted Senator Pearce, who was Minister at
the time, but he cannot recall the reasons. Unfortunately
the file which I thought might have contained some information
on the matter cannot at present be located.
Dodds, of course, would, no doubt, remember the
full circumstances and his reply to your letter of 14th July
to him will probably supply the required particulars.
In the meantime I am still trying to find the file
and if I can gather any definite information on the point I
will immediately let you know.
Yours sincerely,
T.Trumble

C.E.W.Bean, Esq.,
Historian,
Victoria Barracks,
PADDINGTON. N.S.W.
 

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE.
MELBOURNE 4th January, 1924.
No. ...........
[* Do*]
Dear Mr. Bean,
I have hardly complied with your request for a
very short precis showing -
(1) Reasons why Irving was sent to take over command in Egypt,
(2) State of affairs found by Anderson and Laing in Ordnance and
pay branches respectively and steps taken ty them,
but am enclosing extracts from correspondence which will I hope
be sufficient for your purpose.
Col. Laing's report is very long and it is
difficult to sum it up in a few words. I have given you
what Anderson says about it and about Pay matters generally
throughout his reports. The chief result of Laing's report
seems to have been the appointment of an Auditor. The instructions
issued by Defence for the re-organization of the Pay office and
the institution of an accounts system recommended by Col. Laing
were, according to Anderson, practically disregarded.
The earliest record I can trace of suggestion to
send an Australian G.O.C. to Egypt is contained in a minute
dated 17. 11. 15 from the Adjutant General, and which was approved
by the Minister the same day. - Cable sent to Sec. of State
for the Colonies on 24. 11. 15 (Copy attached). Cannot find
anything to show why A.G. made this recommendation.
You will also notice among the corres. copy of
a memo from Gen. Godley to Gen. Chauvel. You might remember
when discussing the question of command of the A.I.F. with Col.
Butler he said he believed Gen. Godley commanded for a time -
this letter seems to show that he did. probably troops remaining
in Egypt after 1^st Anzac left.
In going through the various reports and making
extracts I also made a few which you did not specifically ask for
but which I know Col. Butler will like to see. I am keeping copy
of extracts made for him. He has not returned yet but am
expecting him any day.
If there are any gaps in information and you
write me I will do what I can to complete.
Thanking you for expression of good wishes for
1924 and wishing you and your staff the same,
Yours faithfully
F [[Penhall?]]
C.E.W.Bean Esq.,
Tuggeranong.
 

Defence AlF. 264/1/
Cable 24.11.15 to Sec. of State for the Colonies -
"This Govt. has decided to create position of Deputy Quartermaster
General for Aust. Troops in Egypt and an officer will leave Australia at
an early date to take over this duty. Also proposed to appoint an Aust.
officer as G.O.C. Aust. Troops in Egypt with suitable staff and to be responsible
to this Govt. under G.O.C. Egypt for co-ordination of Training,
administration and organization
Cable 8th December 1915 to Sec. of State for the Colonies -
"In continuation of my telegram of the 24th Nov. Col. Irving is
being appointed G.O.C. Aust. Troops in Egypt with rank of Brig-General
and his staff will consist of Col. Sellheim at present commanding Aust.
Intermediate Base Cairo as D.A.G., Col. Anderson from Australia as
D.Q.M.G. Col. Howse now in Cairo as D.M.S. A G.S.O. to be appointed
later. Proposed that Col. Irving leave Australia Dec. 28th."
Minute on file - "Secretary.
Salary of Col. Irving as G.O.C. Egypt will be £1200
per annum. (Initialled) G.F.P. 10.12.15.
10.12.15 - Cable received from "Stralis" requesting approval establishment
1 L.H.Res.Regt. & 8 Tng.Bns.
18.12.15 - Reply sent -
"W. 32125 Your telegram 10th Dec. AlB 3395 re estab. Reserves Minister
considers matter should be deferred pending arrival in Egypt of Brig-Gen.
Irving."

23.12.15 - Cable from Stralis -
"Confidential AIB.3553 your telegram W32125 could I be informed please
whether Brig-Gen. Irving's appt. Egypt will affect status and function
Intermediate Base as many important questions are under consideration
trust Minister will in any case conserve my seniority in view of past
services present peace appointment Adjutant General of the C'wealth and
nature and scope of work here."

23.12.15 - Cable from Stralis -
"AIB.3574 Confidential please place my AIB.3553 before minister
personally."

31.12.15 - Telegram to Irving Care Commandant, Perth -
"W32723 Since decided that terms of your appointment be varied
to command Aust.Details and Rfts. in Egypt. This will give you absolute
control under Superflux of all Aust. organizations Except Divnl. commands.
Superflux informed by cable."

21.2.16 - Cable from Stralis -
"AHQ. 197 Brig-Gen. Sellheim resumes appt. Commandant AIF. H.Q. from Feb.
19th vice Brig-Gen. Irving appointed to command of 15th inf.Bde."
 

(COPY)
1st Feb., 1916.
The Sec., Dept. of Defence,
Melbourne.
My first despatch was one on Intelligence from Colombo re one
Capt.(?)Loubet, which I trust you received and acted on.
I have now to report that I arrived here on the morning of
Thurs. 27th Jan, and immediately called at our Intermediate Base and saw
Col. Sellheim, who was naturally very sore at my appt. but having talked
quietly to him he was appeased. He justly complained that he had not
been informed that I was to take over from him, and as far as I can trace
such is the case, the only information he had that I was coming being a
cable to Stralis that the appt. of Col. Spencer Browne to supervise training
of Rfts. was to be temporary until my arrival.
I then called on Gen. Sir John Maxwell's H.Q. and was first
taken to Major Gen. Stanton, GOC. Administration, to whom I explained my
mission, having of course armed myself with copies of cables that had been
sent to the War office; after being asked a few questions by him I was
presented to Gen. Sir John Maxwell and handed him the Minister's letter
re my appointment, he received me most kindly but yet veiledly, and
spoke most highly of the work done here by Col Sellheim, and then sent
me off to see Lt-Gen. Sir Wm. Birdwood, he again was eulogistic as to the
work performed by Col. Sellheim, and asked me not to make any move as to
taking over from him until he had received a reply to a suggestion he
had put forward to the Commonwealth through the W.O. re formation of
extra Divisions from Rfts. here (numbering some 25,000) and in Aust -
This I consented to do as although he recognised me again (I met him
when on Lord Kitchener's staff in India in 1905) he also appeared to
dislike the supersession of Col. Sellheim and said to me after my having
explained my mission "Why I want a young man like you out in the Field
commanding a Bligade at least not sitting in an office". With this I
of course agreed, but said I must carry out my orders first.
In the meantime I looked round to get the hang of things
in general by seeing the various Staff officers and getting the disposition
of the various training camps and hospitals.
From these observations I find things running fairly smoothly
but Col. Anderson the Q.M.G. who has also taken over his duties from
Sellheim will next mail havesomething to report through me.
On Sunday 30th I again saw Gen.Birdwood and was told that
he had word from the W.O. that his proposal had been forwarded to our
Minister - yesterday I was determined to get fixed up, so went round to
Gen. Stanton, armed with a draft xxx orders, which seemed to please him,and
he went off to Gen.Birdwood (who by Gazette No.111 of 18.9.15 was appointed
to command the AIF) and after more hesitation and apparent sympathy
for my predecessor he agreed to my proposed draft which appeared in
G.R.O. (attached) this morning. (N.B. This order is to be amended by
addition of the word "Headquarters" after the word "Forces" in second line
of para.197). This means that from yesterday I command all details and
Rfts. in Egypt just as my orders were.
The additional command of No. 1Secn.Cairo District is one under
the local Defence Scheme in case of sudden attach or local disturbance or
risings (which are not infrequent) and comprises besides all our camps,
the New Zealanders and some British Troops - some 50,000 in all.
All the Generals abovementioned have spoken to me earnestly
about the manner in which Col.Sellheim has carried out his very arduous
duties while stationed here, and I have also had interviews with Brig-
Gen. Hughes and Antill who have asked me to express same to the Minister.
Gen.Birdwood informed me that he had already repres recommended Sellheim
for promotion and would do so again and from all I have heart and seen
I would respectfully strongly recommend same.
I have of course not had time to visit all the Training
camps but have up to date paid hurried visits to the following -
1st Aust.Div. - Maj-Gen. Chauvel, CB., CMH.,
2nd  "  " Legge, CMG.
both at Tel-el-Kebir now, but will shortly be moving elsewhere across
the Canal.
x x x 
At Gen.Birdwoods request I am going to lsmalia tomorrow to talk over
his new scheme for formation of extra Aust.Divns. with Brig-Gen/C.B.B.
White & Gen.Godley 
(Sgd) G.G.H.Irving Brig-Gen.
Commandant, A.I.F. HdQrs.
(Gen.Irving returned to Aust per Medina arriving 8. 6. 16)
 

Brig-Gen. Sellheim, Commandant, A.I.F. H.Q.
to Chief of the General Staff, E.E.F. Ismalia - 20.4.16.
x x x 
Perhaps it would serve to clear the ground if I briefly
relate the circumstances in which the appointment of an Aust. G.O.C.
to command, train and organize and administer Australian Details
and Rfts, was made by the Austn.Govt., with the full concurrence
of the War Office.
Since December, 1915, the Austn. Govt. doubtless for good
and sufficient reasons, deemed it desirable that all the AIF.
troops in Egypt should be directly commanded by an Aust.Gen.Officer.
They therefore opened up negotiations on the subject with the W.O.
and as an outcome, the latter approved and despatched a letter to
this effect to Gen. Sir John Maxwell, then C-in-C. in Egypt. I
attach a copy of this marked "B". From this it will be seen that
the Aust.Gen.Officer appointed was to have an adequate staff, and
was to co-ordinate training, organization & administration. The
War Office letter unmistakable states this, and there can be no
shadow of doubt about it.
By the C'wealth GaxetteNo. 157 of 16.12.15 a G.O.C. was
appointed to "Command Australian troops in Egypt"
As the A. & N.Z.Army Corps was about that time returning
to Egypt however, it became necessary to modify the text of this
Gazette notice and an amended Gazette notice was therefore published
i.e. No.1 of 6.1.16 which set forth the appt. of the G.O.C.
in the following terms - "To command Australian details and
Reinforcements in Egypt"
Brig-General G.H. Irving the General officer appointed
arrived with portion of his staff in Cario on 28.1.16 but practically
did not assume command, it being desired by Lt-Gen. W.R.Birdwood
that I should act, and that Brig-General Irving should command a
Brigade. This was arranged by Gen. Birdwood with the concurrence
of the Aust.Govt."
x x x 
War Office, London
9.12.15.
121/Overseas/1355
Sir,
I am directed to inform you that the Govt. of the C'wealth of
Aust. has decided to create the position of D.Q.M.G. for Aust.Troops
in Egypt, and an off. will leave Aust. at an early date to take over
this duty. They also propose to appoint an Aust.Off. as G.O.C.
the Aust. Troops in Egupt, with a suitable staff, to be responsible
to the Govt. of the C'wealth under you, for co-ordination of training
admin. & organization.
(E.S.Bobb. Major General.
Military Secretary.
The GOC., Egypt.
 

(COPY)
9th December, 1915.
General Officer Administering
Levant Base.
1. With ref. to the attached memo dated 8. 12. 15 from the O.C.
Ord.Secn, of this Base regarding a memo dated 8. 12. 15 from D.G.O.
Levant Base a copy of which is attachedfor reference.
2. I have already referred to the question of the Ord.Secn.
in a memo which I ventured to address to you, on the general
question of the Organ.& functions of this Base, Corres. 123/7/4 of
30th Nov.
3. I hope grave consideration will be given to the matter
before a final decision is arrived at to destroy the present Ord.
Organization which has worked harmoniously for nearly a year, and
is in close touch with the British Ord. the Aust.Govt. and the
A.I.F. requirements generally.
4. At the present time the British Ord, deals entirely with th
provision of Ord. supplies to the AIF. in the field after evacuation
from Egypt, and for this purpose I transfer to them such item
as the Aust. Govt. is able to supply, minus such quantities as I require
to meet the demands of the AIF. in Egypt.
5. As regards the AIF in Egypt innumerable Ord.admin.questions
arise in connection with issues to complete equipment not supplied
before embarkation from Aust. and to replace stores lost and
damaged and apportion the blame in accordance with Aust.Regns. &
instns, which are not always in accord with the British. There
are also issued to Aust.Hospitals, Con. Homes and Aust. Estabs.
generally which, I consider, should, and only can be handled by
the Ord.Secn. of my Base. There is also the question of responsibility
to the Aust.Govt, for special issues and the question of
general accountancy for the whole service.
6. In view of all xxxxxx these and other circumstances. it seems
obvious that considerable delay and confusion and loss of efficiency
must eventuate in supplying the needs of the AIF in Egypt if
the present machinery for performing these duties is materially
interfered with.
7. As I shall be held responsible by the Aust.Govt. for any
consequences which may arise from a departure from the approved
lines xxxxx upon which the Ord. Services of this Base are now
established, I solicit permission to lay the situation before
them and obtain their views before final action is taken.
(Sgd) V.C.M.Sellheim Colonel.
Commanding A.I.F= Intermediate Base.
(Copy of corres. sent to Defence Department)