Charles E W Bean, Diaries, AWM38 3DRL 606/256/1 - 1915 - 1936 - Part 7

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of some 80.000 men, surplus to the existing Army Corps,
either already in Egypt, or returning from England, the
Dardanelles, etc., or about to be sent from Australia."
This being all that I could find, I wrote to
General Hare and this is what he says ;
"Of course I cant say what Birdwood's intention
was, nor do I see what he had to do with it as one would
have thought the appointment must have been a matter of
mutual agreement between the C. in. C.,E.E.F., and the A.&.
N.Z. Governments. I cant say if any conference took place
before my appointment, but I suspect that if there was one
it had not quite settled the question. When I arrived at
Tel-el-Kebir there seemed to be a doubt in the minds of
those already there what I had come for and who had sent me.
I gathered that Spencer Browne had been appointed to
command the Training Centre, as it was called, and felt
a little sore at someone arriving to take command over his
head. I had merely been ordered to go there and take over
command and knew nothing about the previous history of the
place. All the same, during the very short time I was
there (10 or 12 days) Spencer Browne and I were the best
 

 - 9 -
of friends and never trod on each others toes. I
commanded the whole concern and looked after the training.
Spencer Browne and his Staff had as much as they could do
to look after the "A" work. During the 10 or 12 days I was
there no one seemed to be able to say to within a matter
of 5000 or so how many troops there were in Camp. Spencer
Browne and I were quite prepared to carry on indefinitely in
the positions in which we found ourselves.
"Whether Spencer Browne had the knowledge to run the
Training I cant say, but I'm sure he had not the time.
His time must have been entirely taken up with Routine
work".
I think that what General Hare says is quite
right and that it became obvious to General Murray that
Spencer Browne had such masses of administrative work to
do, that it was out of the question that he could do the
training as well, and that it was therefore necessary to
appoint someone to do the latter. If you want to clear
up the point about General Hare's appt
still further, I am sure
Captain C.E.W. BEAN.
 

Major General  Sir A Lynden-Bell K C B
Naval & Military Club

Piccadilly. W.
Who was Gen Murray's Chief Staff

Officer would remember exactly

how it came about
With kindest regards & let 

me know if I can do anything

else to help

Yrs Sincerely

A. J. Godley
 

700

22 February 1926
General Sir A.J. Godley, K.C.S., K.CM.G.,

Government House

Salisbury, Wilts

From the extracts of your correspondence which you
good enough to send me. I see that there was a memorandum

of 13 January 1916 sent by yourself to G.H.Q.

containing proposals for the formation of a New Zealand
divisions, additional Australian divisions, and a second

Anzac corps. This was evidently the original proposal
respecting the increase of the Anzac forces
I am writing to Mr. Heyes, our representative at
present with the Historical Section of the Committee of
Imperial Defence, to see if he can find a copy of this
memorandum with the records. If you can think of any
source from which so could obtain it, I should be most
grateful if you would let me know. Me Heyes will probably

communicate with you, in case you could help him in
the matter.
with kind regards
Yours sincerely,
C.E.W. BEAN

12th April 1926.
My dear Bean,
In reply to your letter No.709 of
22nd February 1926, I have not heard from Mr.Heyes
but have looked to see if I have a copy of the
memorandum of January 13th 1916. I cannot find it
nor anything relevant beyond what I sent you on 16th
November 1925.
But, I should think Mr. Heyes is
sure to be able to get it from the records kept in
London. I do not suppose there are any records in
Egypt; they must all have been sent to London. If
he is not successful I hope he will write to me and
tell me what he has tried and perhaps that may give
me some idea of what direction in which to prosecute
further search.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
Alex J Godley
Captain C.E.W. Bean, MC.,
Historian,
Victoria Barracks,
Sydney
 

710.
22 February 1956.
Dear Heyes.
I find that General Godley, on 13 January 1916, sent
into C.H.Q., Egypt (Murray) a memorandum containing the original
proposals for the formation of a New Zealand division and additional 
Australian divisions I don't think that General Godley
has a copy of this, but am writing to make sure. Would you

kindly see if you can trace it among the papers of G.H.Q.?
Similar proposals were made later, but this is the original.
with kind regards,
Yours sincerely.
C.E.W. BEAN
Mr. T.H.E. Heyes

Australian Representative,

Historical Section (Military Branch).

Committee of Imperial Defences,

Audit House,

Victoria Embankment,

London E.C.4.
 

TEL. No. CITY EXT......................

TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESS:

"CROTONATE, ESTRAND, LONDON
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.
AUSTRALIA -HOUSE.

STRAND-LONDON-WG.2.

ADDRESS ALL COMMUNICATION TO

THE OFFICIAL SECRETARY,

AND QOUTE
No...............................................................................
Committee of Imperial Defence,
Historical Section
Room A.7, Audit House
Victoria Embankment,
E.C.4.
8th April, 1926.
Dear Mr. Bean,
Your letter No.710 of 22nd February to hand.
Attached hereto is a copy of General Godley's
Memorandum, containing the original proposals for the
formation of a New Zealand Division and additional
Australian Division. I was able to trace it at the
Historical Section.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
T.H.E. Heyes

C.E.W. Bean, Esq..
Australian Official Historian,
Victoria Barracks
Sydney
Australia.
 

Diagram - see original document 

HN.
COPY.
TENTATIVE AND PROVISIONAL PROPOSAL FOR FORMATION
OF A SECOND ARMY CORPS FROM AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL
FORCE AND NEW ZEALAND EXPEDITIONARY FORCE.
In addition to the recognised three Infantry Brigades for
the three Divisions of which Anzac is at present composed, there
are three Light Horse and one Mounted Rifles Brigades, and one
Brigade (the 8th Australian Infantry) already in existence. In
addition to these, after all existing units have been filled up
to existing establishment, there will be a surplus of about
30,000 men in Egypt, and it is understood that the Australian
Government is sending another 50,000. The 30,000, after the units
have been made up to strength, will consist of surplus reinforcements 
and returned convalescents, and in addition to these
reinforcements will continue as at present arranged, to arrive at
the rate of about 12,000 per month. This will mean that in Egypt,
by the end of this month, there may be something like 40,000 men
or more, to dispose of, exclusive of the 50,000 (extra reinforcements 
for existing units) to come from Australia.
I suggest that the present New Zealand and Australian
Division be reconstituted as a purely New Zealand Division - a
third New Zealand Brigade being raised for it from New Zealand
reinforcements, etc., now in Egypt or arriving. For the formation
of the new Corps, which would be purely Australian, I suggest that
two Divisions be at once formed, with the 4th Australian Infantry
Brigade (from the existing N.Z. & A. Division) as one Brigade of
the 3rd Australian Division, and the 8th as one of the 4th Division,
and that the four remaining Infantry Brigades, necessary for the
completion in Infantry of the 3rd and 4th Divisions, be found from
Australian reinforcements, etc., now in Egypt or arriving from
Australia. When the fresh 50,000 from Australia materialises,
it will be quite easy to form a 5th Australian Division. Major-
General Walker, who did command the lst (Australian) Division at
Anzac, and Brigadier-General McKay, both at present convalescing
 

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from wounds, would be available to command these Divisions, or
possibly Major-General Spens, if desired. The existing Training
Brigades, now under command of the latter, would be merged into
these new formations, and from the point of view of the Australian
Imperial Force and the New Zealand Expeditionary Force, matters
would be put on a much more definite and satisfactory footing.
If desired, the new Corps might be made available for the defence
of Cairo, and operations on the Western Frontier, instead of the
heterogeneous collection of improvised units at present so
employed.
I would suggest that, of the existing Light Horse and Mounted
Rifles Brigades, two, the lst Australian Light Horse and the New
Zealand Mounted Rifles, be attached to the lst Corps, and two, the
2nd and 3rd Australian Light Horse, to the 2nd Corps.
Artillery for the 3rd and 4th Australian Divisions would
have to be improvised, as it was contemplated to do in the case of
the 2nd Australian Division by withdrawing one Brigade from each
of the lst and 2nd Australian Divisions, and letting them start
with only one Brigade of Artillery apiece, as the New Zealand and
Australian Division; originally did. There are some guns now
employed with Major-General Spens' late Training Depot, which could
be used as a nucleus for expansion. I have little doubt but that
Australia would furnish additional Artillery if asked.
Similar improvisations and adjustments can be made to find
the remaining Divisional troops. This is only a rough and bald
outline of a suggestion, which if contemplated and the idea
approved,can be quickly and more easily elaborated.
A.J. GODLEY.
(Lieut.-General).
13/1/1916.