Charles E W Bean, Diaries, AWM38 3DRL 606/256/1 - 1915 - 1936 - Part 5

127
June 27, 1925.
Dear White,
There is no evidence in the records as to the
author of the suggestion that the 4th and 5th Divisions should
be formed in Egypt. The relevant dates are as follow:-
Nov. 24. 1915.. Australian Government decides to provide
another 50,000 men (equivalent to three divisions, less
artillery), with reinforcements.
Nov. 25. Decision announced in Australian press.
Nov. 26. Cable from War Office (probably to M.E.F. or
Maxwell) announcing this decision.
Jan. 15. 1916. Murray tells Anzac staff at Tel-el-Kebir
of above decision. (But surely some Australian newspapers
had arrived before this?)
Jan. 19. Birdwood arrives in Egypt from Salonica, and
goes to Cairo.
Jan. 21. Murray, after conference with Birdwood, applies
to War Office for leave to raise two Australian divisions
and form Australasian Army.
Have you any recollection of this?
The scheme of reorganisation was evidently drawn up
in outline before January 21st, and completed in detail between
then and February 8th. As far as I can make out, you were at
work on this reorganisation while still on Godley's staff.
The first circulars were "Anzac Corps General Staff circulars,
Major-General Sir C.B.B. White, K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O.,
Chairman,
Public Service Board of Commissioners,
Melbourne, Victoria.

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Nos. 13 & 14." The early A. & N.Z. Forces memoranda dealt
with:- No. 1 - reversion of reinforcement N.C.O's; No. 2 -
absorption of sick and wounded; and No. 3 - organisation of
2nd Anzac. These were all dated, I think, February l4th and
signed by you as Brigadier-General in charge of Administration,
A. & N.Z. Forces. Later they were signed by you as D.A. &
Q.M.G. I fancy that you took up this appointment on the
splitting up of the staffs on February 15th (authorised by an
order from Murray of February 8th). Do you remember whether
you were working with Birdwood or Godley on this reorganisation
immedlately after Birdwood's arrival (January 19th), or at some
other stage before your formal transfer to Birdwood early in
February?
Skeen returned with Birdwood to Egypt. Do you know
what became of him? He was to have resumed his place on 

Birdwood's staff.
Yours sincerely,
C. E.W. BEAN

AUSTRALIA 
COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.
PHONE-

CENTRAL 5832.

PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS,
Melbourne, 30th June, 1925.
Dear Bean,
This is in reply to your letter of the 27th June.
It is difficult to say who was really the author of the suggestion 

to create two new divisions in Egypt. I am inclined to
think that the idea originated with Godley. The returns showing 

the number of men available - which at the time he was
receiving - made the necessity for some form of organisation
apparent.  Godley was, however, in constant touch with Birdwood
most of the time, and it may have been that he got the idea from
him, or may be from someone else; he did not, however, get it
from me.
Yes, I began work on the re-organisation whilst still
B.G.G.S. of the Corps and working under Godley. Later, as
things developed, I think towards the end of January, I was
freed of G.S. work and acted as Brig-General in charge of administration 

to carry out A.I.F. work under Godley, who, however,
again was in touch with Birdwood in all that he did. Murray's
staff, mostly from ignorance as to their powers and responsibilities, 

were fussing somewhat about the organisation of the
Corps, and my change of designation was made a good deal to
satisfy them, although naturally we too were seeking a proper
organisation. I took up the appointment of D.A. and Q.M.G.
on the splitting up of the staffs and then acted entirely under
Birdwood.
I do not know how Skeen was actually disposed of. I
think that he went off to India promptly. At no time was there
a suggestion of his resuming with the Corps so far as I am aware.
Yours sincerely,
C B B White
C.E.W.Bean, Esq.,
Victoria Barracks,
Paddington, N.S.W.

128
June 27, 1925.
My dear Field-Marshal,
In reading up the records of the formation of the 4th and
5th Divisions in Egypt I can find little evidence as to the
actual origin of the suggestion that they should be organised
there. If you could assist me with the benefit of your memory
on this point, I should be very much obliged. I know that you
must be very busy, and would appreciate quite a short note.
You were once kind enough to let me have copies of your
correspondence during the Gallipoli campaign. I am wondering
whether, if you have kept your later letters, you could make
those also available to me? Senator Pearce kindly let me have
his private file which contained several of them. They would.
of course, be used with the greatast discretion and on no account
quoted except by your permission.
We are now working in Sydney but it is a long, slow job,
and the records of 1916 are not in a very good condition. This
applies, I fear, to Base and H.Q. records for a greater part of
the war.
Please give my kind regards to Lady Birdwood.
Yours sincerely,

C. E. W. BEAN

1. When last I saw White he appeared
Field-Marshal Sir William Birdwood, Bt., G.C.B., G.C.M.G.,
Commander-in-Chief, Indian Army,
Delhi, India.

COMMANDER-IN-CHIEFS CAMP.
INDIA.
6th August, 1925.
My dear Bean,
I only posted you a letter on arrival in
Bombay, and which I wrote on board. I have now just
received yours of 27th June regarding the formation of the
4th and 5th Divisions in Egypt.
Unfortunately, I have none of my old letters
by me, having left them all locked up at home, and I am
sorry to say there is no one to whom I can write to get at
them to send you a copy, or I would, of course, willingly
do so.
I fear that, after all these years, my memory
on the subject is very hazy. All I remember is that we
realized, when on the Peninsula, that our drafts in Egypt
were gradually mounting up to very large numbers, owing to
the fact that, in view of the possible evacuation, orders
had been issued not to send forward any recent arrivals.
About the same time, if I remember right, Australia had
offered to raise a 3rd Division in Australia. I then
wired suggesting that, if as we had so many drafts, it would
be possible to raise two more Divisions, and asked Australia
if they would agree, and, if so, what number they would
assign to the one they were raising. I, of course, realized
that

2
that the two we should raise in Egypt would be ready for
service before their one out there, and that, therefore,
our two divisions might normally be the 3rd and 4th.
However, I wanted Australia to have their say in the matter,
and they replied saying the new Division they were raising
would be the 3rd. I cannot remember much more, and doubt
if there was really any great correspondence, for I think
Australia consented almost at once to the suggestion.
In the meantime, Tivey's Brigade ^too had arrived, and
had naturally been counted on as forming the basis of one of
the new Divisions, and, as you know, I split up the whole of
our original 16 battalions into half, and apportioned half of
each to the new Divisions - a procedure which I quite
realized would be most unpopular, but which after-results,
I think, fully justified.
I much wish I could tell you more. Should there be
any point you particularly wish to ask about, I will gladly
do anything in my power to answer.
Yours ever,

W. R. Birdwood

268.
August 18, 1925.
Field-Marshal Sir William Birdwood, Bt.

G.C.B.. G.C.M.G.,
Commander-in-Chief.
Indian Army
Delhi, India.
My dear Field-Marshal,
In endeavouring to describe the creation of the new Australian 

divisions in Egypt in 1916, I find I am unable to trace the
origin of the proposal. As far as I can ascertain, the relevant
dates are as under.
November 25, 1915. Australia offers 50,000 men, or infantry
for three divisions.
January 15, 1916. General Murray informs General Godley and
staff at Tel-el-Kebir of this offer (it had, hovever, already
been mentioned in certain newspapers).
January 19. Ceneral Birdwood arrives this evening at Cairo
from Salonica.
January 21. Scheme for the expansion of Australian and New
Zealand force in Egypt into five divisions (as an army under
Ceneral Birdwood) is cabled to London by General Murray after
conference with General Birdwood.
From the meagre written records which I have, the general
inference would be that the expansion in Egypt was suggested by
Ceneral Murray, who wished to absorb the surplus reinforcements.
General White's memory is not clear, but he has a notion that
the suggestion first came to him from General Godley who, however, 

(he states) was in constant communication with General
Birdwood. The division of the veteran infantry battalions into
two was is known to have been General Birdwood's own method.
I should be very much obliged if you could assist me with
the benefit of your memory on this point. I have also written to
General Godley in the matter.
With best wishes to yourself and Lady Birdwood.
Yours sincerely,
C. E.W. BEAN

COMMANDER IN CHIEF IN INDIA

SIMLA
12th Sept., 1925
My dear Bean,
I have just got your 268 of 18th August, which
has crossed my letter to you of 6th August. That, I am
afraid, gives you all the information I have available on the
subject, and I so much regret that my memory does not enable
me to help you more.
I quite forget when the idea first arose of
forming the two new Australian Divisions. Before I knew the
extent of the men available, I had in my own mind been keen on
utilizing Tivey's Brigade as the nucleus of another Division,
and when we found the large number of men that would be
available, the idea naturally expanded itself into two
Divisions; but, as I say, I regret I do not remember details.
I have collected a delightful little Australian
Staff round me at present, with Wylly, V.C., from Tasmania,
as my A.M.S., Davenport of Sydney, of whom I have seen something
during the last few years in my Northern Army, as my Medical
Officer, and Dawson, late of our 24th Battalion, as A.D.C.
I hope the last-named will go to the Staff College next year,
but the competition is severe.
My

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My wife will be out from home next month, and
my son comes with her, but immediately goes off to the
Frontier.
I hope you are both well.
All good wishes,
Yours ever,
W R Birdwood

269.
August 19, 1925.
General Sir A.J. Codley, K.C.B., K.C.M.G.,
Government House,
Salisbury
England.
My dear General
In endeavouring to describe the creation of the new
Australian divisions in Egypt in 1916, I find I am unable to trace
the origin of the proposal. As far as I can ascertain, the relevant
dates are as under.
November 25, 1915. Australia offers 50,000 men, or infantry
for three divisions.
January 15, 1916, General Murray informs General Godley and
staff at Tel-el-Kebir of this offer (it had, however, already 

been mentioned in certain newspapers).
January 19.  General Birdwood arrives this evening at Cairo
from Salonica.
January 21. Scheme for the expansion of Australian and New
Zealand force in Egypt into five divisions (as an army under
General Birdwood) is cabled to London by General Murray
after conference with General Birdwood.
From the meagre written records which I have, the
general inference would be that the expansion in Egypt was 
suggested by General Murray, who wished to absorb the surplus 
reinforcements. General White's memory is not clear, but he has a
notion that the suggsstion first came to him from General Codley
who, however, (he states) was in constant communication with
General Birdwood. The division of the veteran infantry battalions 

into two was is known to have been Ceneral Birdwood's own
method.
I should be very much obliged if you could assist me
with the benefit of your memory on this point. As regards the above
I have also written to Sir William Birdwood.
There is one other point concerning which I am in
doubt and in regard to which you could perhaps help me. When General
Birdwood and the 1st Anzac Corps left Egypt for France it was, I 
believe, his intention that the training of Australian and New Zealand
reinforcements should be in the hands of Colonel Spencer Browne and