Charles E W Bean, Diaries, AWM38 3DRL 606/244/1 - 1916 - 1933 - Part 22

Conflict:
First World War, 1914–18
Subject:
  • Documents and letters
Status:
Awaiting approval
Accession number:
RCDIG1066606
Difficulty:

Page 1 / 10

HW Outsack 550 ronguet M. Hark Eo or Ho. ice EEHERAL CATITAL COMNSSION. Canberra. 2nd November 1927. MEMAANDUM For Ths Heneurable the Mnister for How and Territories. Australian War Hemerial. A further step has; been reached in Connection with the designs for the Australian war Remorial, and in order to refresh your memory I will review the position to dates A conpetition was held in 1925 for the design of the yar Memorial, mandatory conditions, being that accommodation mist be provided for the yar Hemorial collection, which wae specified in detail, for recording the names of 62,000 men who fell in the war, and that the total cost on the basis of 254 above Sydney costs for material and 5½ above Sydney costs For lnbour for the net building must not exceed 2250,000. Designs were examined by the Board of Adjudicators, which reported that none of the designs could be built for the money, that only one design came anywhere near the specified figure, and that only by means of an expedient which was questio 1ble From a point of view of the competition conditions. The Adjudicators recommended that the enthor of this design and the author of the design which attracted most from an architectural point of viey, should be asked to collaborate with a view to the production of a design which would embody the desired features and still be capable of construction, calculated on the compotition figure, for 2250,000. This recommendation was discussed at a meeting presided over by the then Minister for Home and Territories, Senator the Honourable Sir William Glasgon, at which the members of the Australian War Memorial Board, the Federal Capital Commssion and the Adjudicators were present, and it was decided to adopt the Adjudicators: recommendation and to award a number promunn as on act of Grace. The two Architects concerned, Hessrs. Sodersteen and Crust, were thereupon engaged to prepare a design, and they have been working at this ever since. In the process of their working they have had a number of consultations with Mr. Murdoch the Chief Architeet of the Comensealth Texks 3 Railways Inpartment, and members of the Enderal capital Commiasion, and a few week ago they submitted their final designs with the information that they could be constructed for 2250,000. There has been som dissatisfaction on the part of the competitors with the adjudication, and the Commission therefore viewed this question of costs as of vital importance. The desi ns which hare baen submitted are merely sketch plans, and ara not in any sense working drarings, and this increased the Aifficulty of arriving at a fair estinate of the cost. It is guits out of the amation to produce working drawings and take out quintitios in detailt at II d Invoive won iths of work ind cost. 3½ on. ₤250,000. However, the commission
Cas 2 towr it 59 13 Bu 307 2ts mayer 28 4 McGown later At 388 24w 3 taa Sll bonb tllack did loak of ar till bd m by ofa 136 ops Barriho c te parit on the fortinatile the lett edged had got too far bot talrape ont ao D Fity Patrick & H/G. Merk 4ors wd who 8 Smale i &8led 886 a 88
& establd block abt 30or fare airen upe 73 pate of te Connct Son Burriestes obdw byped 13A J N Ht. Bae wogreman A sn idrew & brought in opposite by acotet sefas a w Lated St wit oveo with tem. spes out anld will eaches hopom tugonts year hat witdan in face o They ed heavy Cas. E Gatal frome ht afene ome Eers Kiffictan it an t I md md Dliters traveled barefood 72 Cpes 02 abn madbs boweskin Well Erason in 95 or t. T a EKat Allen & 31 or t patti 1P Br beyon H.P. S. Henterson H kales & Morfan 16200 w0 2 w
A Frecclone outcide or inooutside. what is this? not tols to archilute po vichitle i250000 arranged for Commissioner Sir John Harrison to very closely examine the designs and prepare an estimite of cost. He has gone to a very great deal of trouble to arrive at a fair estinnte, and the result of his examination indicates the followings- (1) It appears clear tht the Architects lave been figuring on a design utilising freestone as the main building material, and on this assumption and on the Competition basis as to estimating, the Comussion estimites that the contract price for the building would be 8300,000. it is considered that In tis portion of th building nothing but Teverlasting iterials should be used, both inside and but, that is to say, the Cormissian cannot contemplite the walls being finished New in plaster but on the contrary considers that the pinterior anould be finished in matarials such as marble. The Comdssion feela very strongly that for Australia’s (3) principal yar Mamorial, located in the Hational Capital of Australis, the outslde facing wnterial should not ba af freestons, but should be of materia such as granite. The use of such a mterial would Trohably increase the cost of the building by approximately 250,000. I forward you herewith the design inmitted by Rasrs. Sodersteen and Crust, and shall be shad if you will be good enough to give me the necessary, directions he to the next step. It should be borne in mind that in addition to the cost mentioned above, interest during construction of the Rmorin mist be added, and also a figure to cover the Commasion's overhead costs, whilst the treatment of the terraine in the Vicinity of the Memorial, roads, footpaths, steps and entrance cates, would probably absorb 220,000. The, total cost of carrying cut this design is therefore so much in excess of the funds which the Commmission understands are available for the Memorial, that only two alternatives appear to be possibles- (1) To mke additional funds available; or To reduce the war Exmorial collection very considerably, (2) to such an extent as would reduce the cubie content of the building to a figure at which it would be possible to keep within the stipulated amount. The amount of reduction required scom, to indicate that this is out of the quastion. In either of these events the only possible course appears to be to reopen the competition on the new basis. Lamll pe Find ILyen will lot i have your instructions as soon as possible, as it will be necessary to Kinalise arrangements with the Architects, Messrs. Sodersteen & Trust. WI 1389½S. to7 Chief Commssiener. The Acting Mrector. lan pur Memorial, Melbourne. Austra Forwarded by direction, for favour of your observ- ations on the alternatives suggested by the Chief Commssioner. Tho design submitted by Messre, Sodersteen & Crust has been forwarded under separate cover. (830) For SCCTETENY 11.11.27. Home & Territories Dept. 1ORIA
y naisaare 102 Ang 14. S. Iwh D9I1 (Sie 6 150 didnt 2 LSBoIr OdT HOT NOI TSWHSL 845.T0 bi TalEE relieved ob thence wrate a trench had taken brought heavely ought all Cap
TELEPHONE NOS. F2597. F2SeS. CONMUNICATIONS TO SE ADDRESSED TO THE DIRECTOR. IN REPLY PLEASE OUOTE 10 TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESS AUSWARMUSE. COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA. AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORIAL. "They gave their lives. For that public gift they POST OFFICE BOx 21AD. received a praise which never ages and a tomb most glorious—not so much the tomb in EXHIBITION SUILDINGS, MELBOURNE. which they lie, but that in which their fame survives, to be remembered for ever when occasion comes for word or deed.. 17th November, 1927. Dear Sir. 1 am enclosing copy of a commnication, which was received here this morning, from the Chairman of the Federal Capital Commission, relative to the designs for the Australian War Memorial, and in view of the importance of the questions raised by Sir John Butters, Major Marr, the Chairman of the Board of Management of the War Memorial, has been requested to fix a time, date and place for a meeting of the Board to consider the matter. On receipt of his reply, a further communication will be addressed to you. Yours faithfully, ish Acting Director. C.E.M. Bean, Esq. Official Historian, Victoria Barracks. STDMEY. N.S.W.
Barton last seen leading hing man a (am. Upon Dloy (left) pusher to J.R. 34A35255 where they were caled by borby pity all Paper Jam on 12. Wl bok 15 60. e confor toot at 10 39p 6 12649. Ilette. Aed Ca.S 38 Ert Di W 5050 512 439.62 yoews Rebbon Lyd- Wed Moore Loudon I Mark Dy. Mitch we recuved I extre arly dujout a 6 thon Nells large sapply be sasshells. So fromb from 10.30 Bm2.30am 1312 O Randill sby ll w0 - 2t. 2910 /m Ct. W. Eam Ss Gfalls rt 150 Coys L9. alpers C Ipo Colkoss wok over our tane. hn
1 we E4 Cry w wod Mc So X wwd 05 3 0 Rct At 13pet aho HEruth At Fann (4427 A Hopped off Jror C5 3- 74-958 Srt Ser 1am 11th hopped wodSN.3wN 6 supptt Opt Sof Bra R ot 6 pd 269 I loy fite . had byy eaty stelled bates ford lo ws D Coy t arad 26 5 at Res to 16Bn Coy 113ou fo his all barr yell fom D advanced where it lifted Al E am word recd to objve to but o were bindered Consold by dinse Has. Go Cbombardids am Capt. I. Ctoby 1w Barton $40r. m 100xk
AU CARLYONS HOTEL CONDUCTED BY WIN. FOWLES OPPOSITE SPENCER ST. RAILWAY STATION MELBOURNE. Jo Wokon from Mr 30 an t Fomb i 5t Beecephd 1 lett Slant. the live had advanced very little since Buntes relieved on is of t5 Ay. bat as follows 289 9 2m p. 23 0 739 Aax D loys ind to order left to regls B loy brough t up sations athe I am went into suppt in toms but Bmoved in Lineat 9 pm Capte I Wells, wd ca tg exmned in Commndf E Att at 11 pm AObsey 3 28003 (excl) 27d 4B loy fou lages 41 B03- 360 13 36- 66 9 66 A worked out at 60 into Nomanaled & then foled af barr neating w heavy no fire & showers of bomls. Her rushd 1st objve & deached CT leading to 7B. 2 Decls of 9 under cover onioitar at 90 worked t Lou
5 &o 18 Iday veans nore cost I has already gove up 2 Honare TAMHA TE ASS SO The csips are estinated not in acc. wil the is a alteation of the Conditions isnd with goots concurrence. co Repininy permonent facing anide. Plaster is permancnt. a Repoinng batter, ban focestone. to provision for wheres. ) Repenary podt of Cayry ont posunds. 27 141 including the Collection. No the dis 6 The memorial is poceumn or gallry to I know - 21 boute or ay oters hes this tae pleaty ande st t i if I wenonet is tohea aten it must be plastes 1. The penorial woille collation toh. i was make in the pinis, wths wven & It is quite if it were not chosen. auige ore t hos otters are petty c very baakacyed. cat bat (0 seraplones ) by guus.

COPY
[*HN On Back
13 Bn.  Mouquet Fm.  Marks
Diary*]
COMMONWEALTH  OF  AUSTRALIA.

FEDERAL  CAPITAL  COMMISSION.

Canberra.   2nd November 1927.
MEMORANDUM  For -
The Honourable the Minister for Home and Territories.
Australian  War  Memorial.
A further step has been reached in connection with
the designs for the Australian War Memorial, and in order to
refresh your memory I will review the position to date:
A competition was held in 1925 for the design of
the War Memorial, mandatory conditions being that accommodation
must be provided for the War Memorial collection, which was
specified in detail, for recording the names of 62,000 men
who fell in the war, and that the total cost on the basis of
25% above Sydney costs for material and 5% above Sydney costs
for labour for the net building must not exceed ₤250,000.
Designs were examined by the Board of Adjudicators, which
reported that none of the designs could be built for the money,
that only one design came anywhere near the specified figure,
and that only by means of an expedient which was questionable
from a point of view of the competition conditions.   The
Adjudicators recommended that the author of this design and
the author of the design which attracted most from an
architectural point of view, should be asked to collaborate
with a view to the production of a design which would embody
the desired features and still be capable of construction,
calculated on the competition figure, for ₤250,000.   This
recommendation was discussed at a meeting presided over by the
then Minister for Home and Territories, Senator the Honourable
Sir William Glasgow, at which the members of the Australian
War Memorial Board, the Federal Capital Commission and the
Adjudicators were present, and it was decided to adopt the
Adjudicators' recommendation and to award a number of
premiums as an act of grace.
The two Architects concerned, Messrs. Sodersteen and
Crust, were thereupon engaged to prepare a design, and they have 
been working at this ever since.   In the process of their working
they have had a number of consultations with Mr. Murdoch the 
Chief Architect of the Commonwealth Works & Railways Department, 
and members of the Federal Capital Commission, and a few weeks 
ago they submitted their final designs with the information 
that they could be constructed for ₤250,000. 
There has been some dissatisfaction on the part of 
the competitors with the adjudication, and the Commission 
therefore viewed this question of costs as of vital importance.   
The designs which have been submitted are merely sketch plans, 
and are not in any sense working drawings, and this increased the 
difficulty of arriving at a fair estimate of the cost. It is 
quite out of the question to produce working drawings and take 
out quantities in detail for the reason that it would involve 
months of work and cost 3% on ₤250,000. However, the Commission

 

4
13 BN 

Cas

1st Tour

k

3.

37
w

10.

302
m.

4.*

28
P of war 

1

1
 

18

368

*Lts Meyer &
McGown later

rept  wd &
P of W.

 

2 Tour

k. -  26
wd 8.   141
M.  2.   45
  10  212
    28.580. 

Sept 27/28  Early mg of 28th
Attempted a small bombing attack
under cover of arty barrage
Barr not to open till wd gn by offr

on G. parpt. Unfortunately pty
had got too far N & the left edge of
the "box" barrage came down upon

the
Lt Fitzpatrick &  L/Cpl. Muir k

4 ors Wd.

Oct 4 Gs made small raid on 16th Bn who
had 8 k & 8 wd. 

 

5
& establd block abt 30x on
far side of 73.  Patrol tried
to connect w 16 Bn.  Dividing
Murray ws infmd by patrol
tt 16 Bn ws ^seen retiring.  A Coy
withdrew & brought in wd

B Coy encountered similar oppositn
to A & had to withdraw with them.

C & D reached objves but met with
heavy oppositn from G. dugouts near
28 c 94 & had to withdraw in face of
a strong C/attack. ^They suffered heavy Cas.
from  m.g. fire on rt.
Gt difficulties thro mud,  Runners
travelled barefooted leaving their boots
in / mud in many caves. SBs had to go

over open.

18 or k.  Capts Wells , Browning,

Lts Cole, Darcy , Irvine  &  95 or wd.

Lts Pattrrick (B S N) & J Allen & 31 or
missing.
Aug 30.  48 Bn began to relieve at 11 pm

Capt HW Murray, Lt R.J. Henderson,
2 Lt  C. Kalev & Morgan & 42 or wd,

8 k, 14 m. 

 

- 2 -

arranged for Commissioner Sir John Harrison to very closely
examine the designs and prepare an estimate of cost.  He has gone
to a very great deal of trouble to arrive at a fair estimate, and
the result of his examination indicates the following:-

[*w Freestone
outside or
in & outside?*]

(1) It appears clear that the Architects have been figuring
on a design utilising freestone as the main building
material, and on this assumption and on the 
competition basis as to estimating, the Commission

estimates that the contract price for the building

would be  £300,000.

[*What is this?*](2) It is considered that in the memorial portion of the 
building nothing but "everlasting" materials should be 
used, both inside and out, that is to say, the
[*(2) New*] Commission cannot contemplate the walls being finished
in plaster, but on the contrary considers that the
interior should be finished in materials such as marble.

(3) The Commission feels very strongly that for Australia's  
principal War Memorial, located in the National

Capital of Australia, the outside facing material

should not be freestone, but should be of material
[*(1)*] such as granite. The use of such a material would
probably increase the cost of the building by

approximately £50,000.

I forward you herewith the design submitted by
Messrs. Sodersteen and Crust, and shall be glad if you will be
good enough to give me the necessary directions as to the next
step.  It should be borne in mind that in addition to the cost
mentioned above, interest during construction of the Memorial
[* not told to

architects*]

must be added, and also a figure to cover the Commission's
overhead costs, whilst the treatment of the terraine in the
vicinity of the Memorial, roads, footpaths, steps and entrance
gates, would probably absorb £20,000. The total cost of carrying
[* not included

in  £250,000*]
out this design is therefore so much in excess of the funds

which the Commission understands are available for the Memorial,

that only two alternatives appear to be possible:-

(1) To make additional funds available; or
(2) To reduce the War Memorial collection very considerably,
to such an extent as would reduce the cubic content

of the  building to a figure at which it would be

possible to keep within the stipulated amount.  The 
amount of reduction required seem to indicate that 
this is out of the question.

In either of these events the only possible course

appears to be to reopen the competition on the new basis.

I shall be glad if you will let me have your
instructions as soon as possible, as it will be necessary to
finalise arrangements with the Architects, Messrs. Sodersteen & 
Crust. 
(Sgd) J. H. BUTTERS

Chief Commissioner.

The Acting Director,

Australian War Memorial, Melbourne.
Forwarded by direction, for favour of your observations
on the alternatives suggested by the Chief Commissioner.
The design submitted by Messrs. Sodersteen & Crust

has been forwarded under separate cover.
(Sgd)

for Secretary,

Home & Territories Dept.

11.11.27. 

 

(3)
Aug 14.  Further att.^at 10 p.m. Our objve
R2 7 D 9 11 (sic) to R33B48  thence
to 3.6 (If so didn't Murray
go too far C. end B.?) 50 Bn on left,
51 on Rt.

Wd recd at 10.30 pm tt a trench had
bn encountered 75x from J.O.T.

Rept timed  11.45. pm sd we had taken
further trench 150x out from JOT -full of
Germans- Took 11 prisoners &  m.g. ws brought
back by LCpls Smith & Pattrick.
Aug 15th 12.45 am on 15th - We were heavily
C/attd & had to retire but brought all
wd.

2Lts Walter, Clasper, Farlow

(d of w) & Lanagan wd   Capt J K

Henderson & Lt C B Meyer  m.  Capt
A.G.  Fox (wd) p of war, or 10 k. 78 wd 22 m
Bn relieved by J1 abt 5 am.
Lt Henley k on way out  or 50. k  5 wd 1 prisoners. 

 

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

TELEPHONE Nos.                       T

F 2597.
F 2598.
COMMUNICATIONS TO BE ADDRESSED TO
"THE DIRECTOR."
IN REPLY PLEASE QUOTE

No .......

TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESS
'"AUSWARMUSE."

AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORIAL

POST OFFICE BOX 214 D.

EXHIBITION BUILDINGS, MELBOURNE.

" They gave their lives. For that public gift they
received a praise which never ages and a 
tomb most glorious - not so much the tomb in
which they lie, but that in which their fame
survives, to be remembered forever when occasion

comes for word or deed . . . . . "

17th November, 1927.

[*Treloar.

Whereabouts

of Shellal Mosaic

? St Mary's.*]
Dear Sir,
I am enclosing copy of a communication,
which was received here this morning, from the
Chairman of the Federal Capital Commission,
relative to the designs for the Australian War
Memorial, and in view of the importance of the
questions raised by Sir John Butters, Major Marr,
the Chairman of the Board of Management of the
War Memorial, has been requested to fix a time,
date and place for a meeting of the Board to
consider the matter.

On receipt of his reply, a further
communication will be addressed to you.
Yours faithfully.

T Griffith

Acting Director.

[* De Grut's 

Letter.*]

C.E.W. Bean, Esq.,

Official Historian,

Victoria Barracks,

SYDNEY. N.S.W. 

 

(2)
Barton last seen leading his men at
1 am.
11 pm. d Coy (left) pushed to) R 34A 35-56 where
they were attd by bombg pty abt
Paper.  .1 am on 12. We took 15 prisoners.
12 Aug. 10.30 pm  we contd ford most at 10.30pm
Gillette.  w 50 Bn & 12 (Brit) Div, & seized R 34A 86-38-
R 34B 9.6½
Typewr. Ribbon.
Moore .Syd. Wed.
₤10 London
Mitch [shorthand] marks Dy.
We secured v. extve Arty dugout w
large supply of shells thought to
be gas shells.  Gs c/bombdd from 10.30
pm - 2.30am 13th
Lt Randell slightly wd- 2k 29w 1m
Aug 13 At 4.45am Gs c/atts rt of 50th - C.Coys LGs
dispersed C/A
11 pm Col Ross took over our line.

 

(1)
10 Aug  Line 24 - 74 - 43
McGown wd.
P, M, K & W wd  19 o.r. w, 1 k
Ret
11. At 1 a.m.(11/12) At 11.30pm (10/11) A & D hopped off
Hopped off from w hopping off trench 53 - 74 - 95. at 11.30pm10th at 1 am 11th hopped
off & seized 53 - 4.3 - 49 - 65
Suppt Coy (B) in O.G1 S of Braids Rd
Each F.L. Coy (A & D) had 2 LGs
D Coy (on l) ws had bn heavily shelled betw
6 - 11 pm.
C Coy xx ^actg as Res to 16 Bn
In this att barr fell from 1 - 1.3 am
When it lifted, A & D advanced.
At 2 am word recd tt objve tn, &
Consoldg; but operatns were hindered
by dense fog.  Gs C/bombarded 3.45am.
Capt F.M ("Toby") Barton & 4 o.r. m 10 or k, 91 wd.

 

7
CARLYON'S HOTEL
CONDUCTED BY
WIN. FOWLES
OPPOSITE SPENCER ST. RAILWAY STATION
MELBOURNE,
Aug 29. Took ovr from 15 Bn at 4.30am
Found tt , w (exceptn o / left flank,
the line had advanced very little since
Bn ws relieved on mg of 15 Aug.
Line as follows
R 28c 9.2 - 41 - 21 - 01 - R 27D 91.
A C D Coys in tt order left to right
B Coy brought up rations at 11 am &
went into Suppt in Tom's Cut. ^B moved
in Line at 9 pm.  Capt T Wells, wd
in mg remained in Commd of Coy.
Att at 11 pm.
Coy objectives frontages A  R 27d 7.3 - 28c 0.3 (excl)
B  03 - 36
C  36 - 66
D  66 - 95.
A  worked out abt 40x into Nomansld & then folld up
barr. meeting w heavy mg fire & showers of bombs.  They
rushed 1st objve & reached CT leading to 73.  2 Sectns of
Bombg pln worked from 91 under cover of S. mortar at 90.

 

Delay means more cost
It has already gone up 10%.
It is an alter ation of The designs are estimated not in acc. with the Conditions issued
with Govts concurrence -
in (1) Requiring permanent facing inside.
Plaster is permanent.
(2) Requiring better than freestone.
?X(3) Requiring provision for interest.
(4) Including cost of laying out grounds.
If the dis
(1) The memorial is the Collection.  No
museum or gallery tt I know - e.g. Louvre
or any other - has other than plaster inside.
Plaster si ∴ if / memorial is to be a Collection
it must be plaster.
(2) The memorial will be / Collection (wh
was made in tt spirit) whether even
if it were not chosen.  I It is quite
a unique one - & most others are getting
very hackneyed -
Cut out (1) aeroplanes
(2) big guns.
[*We have secured exhibits as
The Aust War Mem - & are
securing them - from Fr. Ital
Govts - from numerous persons
in Eng. & Aust.*]

 


 

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